Sport Sister Podcast - Season 1, Episode 5

Episode 5 – Creating Thriving Environments: Cath Bishop and Sophie Bartup.

Cath Bishop and Sophie Bartup

Cath Bishop is a triple Olympian, former diplomat, leadership coach and author of ‘The Long Win’, listed in the Financial Times’ Top 10 Business Books of 2020. Sophie Bartup is the Founder and Chair of Barton Inclusive Football Club, a community club providing inclusive football opportunities for all. The club has six PAN-disability teams, two walking football teams and is a Weetabix Wildcats provider.  Cath and Sophie join Natalie Doyle to discuss their experiences of creating thriving environments in sport.  Their passion and energy is a joy to listen to, and they have lots of useful tips.

Sometimes as a grassroots volunteer we forget how significant we are in terms of the impact we have on young people.

- Sophie Bartup

Read this episode’s transcript

Natalie Doyle:

Welcome to the Sport Sister Podcast, where we bring together professional experts with grassroots pioneers to discuss key topics for grassroots sport. 

I’m Natalie Doyle, and in this episode, I’m joined by two people from different sports, with a shared passion to create thriving environments. 

Cath Bishop is a triple Olympian, former diplomat, leadership coach and author of The Long Win, which was listed in the Financial Times Top 10 business books of 2020. Cath competed in rowing at three Olympic games winning world championship gold in 2003, an Olympic silver in Athens, 2004.

My other guest, Sophie Bartup, is the founder and chair of Barton Inclusive Football Club, a community club providing inclusive football opportunities for all. The club has six pan-disability teams, two walking football teams, and is a Weetabix Wildcats provider. Sophie was named the Lincolnshire County FA adult coach of the year 2020/2021.

This is going to be a great chat. Let’s see what they have to say.

Right! Cath and Sophie, thank you so much for giving up your time today. We’re going to talk about creating thriving environments, which is an interesting subject I think. 

Cath I’m going to go to you first. What does a thriving environment look like? What does it look like to you?

Cath Bishop:

Delighted to be here, thank you very much for inviting me to join. It’s a really important question and I’ve got some thoughts, but I also think it’s okay to be constantly asking that question. What does thriving mean? Because it does mean slightly different things to different people. So I think we don’t have to have a definitive answer. However, the sort of elements that I look for, that I’ve seen, that also we’ve learnt whether it’s through sports psychology or through understanding the importance of culture, is that thriving environments are ones where people feel they can be their whole selves, where they feel that they are safe to be themselves, that they can also share their ideas without fear of reprisal, that they can challenge perhaps others’ thoughts without that going against them, and that they can start to explore what they’re capable of. So it’s a place where they flourish, where they can grow.

Natalie Doyle:

Yeah. Great points. What about you, Sophie? What does it look like for you?

Sophie Bartup:

Yeah, a lot of what Cath said there I’ll be echoing and, for me, from a grassroots perspective and the club that I’m chairman of as a football club. So I work with players from the age of five years old to walking footballers that are into their seventies, and for me, as Cath’s alluded to it’s a place where players can develop, but for me, not just as sports people or footballers, but as people as well, and I think that’s really, really, really important. And again, from a grassroots perspective, I know from running this football club for three years, that the thriving environments for our players are a reflection on the workforce of our volunteers as well. So it’s critical that the environment for our volunteers is one where they feel empowered and their needs and motivations are recognized and met so that they can recognize and respond to the different abilities and the different needs of our players.

For example, we have a massive amount of differentiation within our football sessions, and for me, when I’m planning them, planning the football session is the bit that I enjoy, it’s the straightforward bit, but it’s the other aspect of understanding that actually this player might just need five minutes with me at the beginning before the session starts, to help and put out the cones, I can embed some maths in that as well, where they get to count every six steps, which is brilliant, but this player might just need a little bit of a smaller ball so that they’ve got much more success where they’re mastering that ball as well. And as I’ve said, similarly, with the workforce side of things, it’s understanding that I’m taking the time to listen to the volunteers and to connect with them and to understand the reasons why they’re doing it and to ensure that they’re supported in the right way.

We’re giving them the right tools as a club and resources to develop themselves so that they can continually be inspired to deliver and facilitate good and safe and inclusive sessions. And again, Cath as you’ve mentioned, it’s something for me that’s always evolving as well. Situations with players may change, situations with coaches may change. So it’s understanding that we may have a session one week that all players have met their objective or the targets, but actually the following week, it might be year six SATs, wow, that’s monumental for some of our players, and we need to recognize that and maybe just adapt a little bit, and it’s not necessarily a technical session, but we’re here to have fun, to smile and laugh with your friends. And it’s just that constant evolution of sessions. And as the players develop, just giving them the platform to be the best versions of themselves that they can be, and sport is such a powerful tool for that to happen.

Cath Bishop:

I love the way that that brings us back to the human purpose of sport. And I think that gets lost. It gets lost at elite level, but also gets lost sometimes at grassroots level. And that’s what sometimes inhibits or blocks people from being able to be at their best and like lots of things you’re picking out there, it’s how the person thrives, it’s not, you’re a footballer or you’re a member of our club, or you’re an elite athlete. It’s that person-first approach and the adaptability piece, that means we just allow people to be all of who they are. And we recognize that there are things that we don’t know about that are happening in other parts of their life, but they bring with them, and that has an impact on how they turn up. We want to give them an environment where they can bring all of themselves through the door. I think that’s something that, whether we’re talking about the workplace or a school or a community club or an elite club, that is essential for creating an environment for humans to thrive in.

Natalie Doyle:

It’s so true. Sophie, you mentioned about workforce and having the right people in place makes such a difference, doesn’t it, in terms of how you create that environment? How do you identify who those people are, who can help you create that?

Sophie Bartup:

Yeah. That’s a question I get asked quite a lot from colleagues or friends that also volunteer within the grassroots game. And they’ll often say to our football club, how do you recruit your volunteers? And I find that quite a difficult question to answer because the majority of our volunteers now, have been in our club environment in a different capacity, whether that be a parent or whether that be a grandparent, and they’ve come to the session to watch their child or to support their family member. And actually, they’ve been impacted by the culture that we’ve been able to create. And we just recently hosted our end-of-season awards and one of our Wildcats, she asked if she could say a few words and it was brilliant because she said, we’re a family.

And I think that’s so important as well. So a lot of our volunteers have started as bringing their child in, and now they’re either a coach or a training coordinator that volunteers within our club. And what I’m really keen from, from my perspective as a club chair, is that I don’t put out an advert and say, right, we need a coach, or we need somebody to take the subs. I’ll say, look, does anybody want to get involved? And does anybody have time to give and really give them the empowerment to go actually, I do have some time and I’ve been so inspired by what you do. And I’m really, really, really good at organization. Okay, well, we’ve got a job for you. We’ve got an incredible volunteer whose role is to do cupcakes every time it’s a Wildcat’s birthday and it’s phenomenal. And again, taking it back to our awards, we had club hero awards for every active volunteer within our club and she received one. She was astounded. It was our way of showing your impact is as significant as somebody else’s because our girls get so excited when it’s somebody’s birthday. I mean, we’ve got that many now that it’s nearly every week. So it’s a lot <laugh>

Cath Bishop:

A lot of cake eating happening <laugh>

Sophie Bartup:

But it’s just recognizing everybody’s commitment. And again, it’s not saying right, we need this role. It’s actually saying you’ve got some spare time, you’ve seen the impact they had on your child, your grandchild, how would you like to contribute to our club? And we almost find that that’s the way that we recruit. And we’ve got some fantastic people in some fantastic roles. And again, take it back to a parent who started as a training coordinator, doing a fantastic job, she’s now stepped across the line to coach. She’s doing the BT Playmaker, now doing the level one. So I guess sometimes it’s actually letting that natural process happen instead of thinking, right, I’m under pressure to find a coach, I’m under pressure to find this training. It’s actually sometimes just creating the environment first to allow people to find out what’s best for them and let them go at their own pace. And that’s something I find is really, really important. And again, it’s not just meeting the needs of the players, it’s meeting the needs of the workforce behind our club that put on these good sessions for people

Cath Bishop:

Environment first makes me think about the concept of thriving, it’s like flourishing. It’s like that gardening analogy that we don’t make the plant grow by pulling the plant up. We make the plant grow by enriching the soil by watering, by whatever we can do to help the quality of the soil. And that’s what you are talking about there with the environment, is you’re feeding the soil of the club, and from that incredible things grow, we actually don’t know how those seeds might grow, and they’re going to look slightly different when they come out. But actually, all we can do is keep feeding that environment. And that’s where you get what I would call The Long Win, from investing in these things. It might not make us win Saturday’s game, but my goodness over time, we have people who can play all sorts of roles because they want to feel part of it.

Sometimes I think in the elite game, where we’re pushing in such a narrow way, and sometimes the athletes have such a poor experience that the tragedy is that I don’t really care whether they end up winning a medal or not. We’ve lost that person from sport. We’ve lost somebody who could advocate for the game, who could go on to become a coach or a parent or just inspire the next generation. And that’s as important because that’s the connection that we get. So the community that exists, whatever level we play sport, that’s really, for me what the purpose of sport is. So it’s, how do we feed that sense of community? How do we create that environment? 

That for me is far more important than the medals. The medals will come and the medals will go, and then there’s always the next set, and there’s always the next set, but this is like the kind of infinite game that we need to play if you like, the longer game, that is so important. And it pays back in so many different ways as you were just demonstrating.

Sophie Bartup:

Cath with that analogy with the plant as well, and, providing all the right nutrients for it to grow, and I think, again, for me, my personal philosophy, I always think of coaching as the little things. So for example, I know at the end of each Wildcats session, in my mind, I’m going to get to that gate before that first Wildcat gets to that gate. Nobody’s going to beat me to it because then I can make sure that every Wildcat that leaves that session, here’s something from me. It might not necessarily be about football. It might be, I was really, really, really proud of you today when you noticed that one of the Wildcats was feeling down and you took them to one side and you buddied up with them, or, when I needed help with that goalpost, you came over and you provided me with that help.

And again, it’s those little things that we continually do as human beings to get to that longevity in terms of that thriving environment. Similarly with the connections that you mentioned. We have an incredible setup with our Wildcats and with the inclusive teams we deliver, but a big part of that is communicating with our parents. Quite often on a Monday evening, we deliver two inclusive sessions, parents will text me or ring me and say this has happened today at college or school, therefore they’re still coming and really excited to still come to training. However, please be conscious of it. And I know that actually in that session, it’s okay if they maybe need five minutes out or similarly at the same time, they’ll go, this has happened at college today.

They’ve got a certificate for working hard and I’ll go brilliant. So I know in my mind, I’m going to ask them about that to raise their self-esteem and to ensure that they can start that session. Sometimes, I think as a grassroots volunteer, we forget how significant we are in terms of the impact we have on young people. So for me to recognize someone’s achievements in college or within a different community club, that goes a long way. And I think it’s really hard because it’s being self-aware, isn’t it? And actually going, do you know what, we do have a really significant impact on that young person. It may be an hour a week, but that hour may be more purposeful than any other environment that they’re part of. So it’s the little things for me that I try and do, and I try and encourage those around me to do as well.

Cath Bishop:

I like that because little things can have such a big impact. You’re also focusing there on who that person is, their intrinsic value, their intrinsic worth. It’s not about whether you scored a goal or not. I mean, great if you do, but you are still part of this, your value isn’t determined by that. And that’s something I see slowly starting to shift. It’s so important to shift. I sit on the advisory board for The True Athlete Project, which is a lovely nonprofit organization, trying to create a support mechanism through mentoring, through workshops they do to enable up-and-coming athletes, often sports scholars or perhaps athletes with potential to get to the elite level, to think beyond simply, what results you’re getting, but to put this framework around and they look at what are your values win or lose?

What are the things that you stand by, who are you beyond sport, that kind of whole person, how do you then connect to a community? And how do you develop to be a good citizen through sport? And that’s absolutely what I hear through what you are talking about. And that’s where your club message then also leaves the gate with them, and they take that into other things. They take that into those other parts of their life, they’ll advocate for you they’ll attract others to the club. It’s a win-win situation, but it is that sense that sport helps us to develop as people. And again, that lasts beyond whatever the trophies are. We want to win them if we can. That’s great. But when we step off the podium, then what are we left with? And, that’s what you are investing in, which is just so powerful.

Natalie Doyle:

Yes, there’s so many other things, aren’t there, in people’s lives that will affect how they are when they come to participate in sport, be that from a grassroots point of view, as you spoke about Sophie, but I suppose Cath when you are working in a more elite environment and with businesses as well, how do you see that has impacted creating an environment when people come in with their own experiences and all the other things that are going on in their worlds, do you find when you add on top of the pressure for performance and achieving what they’re trying to achieve, can that have a negative effect on the environment or is it about making sure it’s strong enough to overcome those?

Cath Bishop:

Yeah, I suppose it depends on what you really think is the most important thing. Is it some sort of short-term target, some short-term outcome, or actually are we here because we have a purpose, because we want people to thrive whilst they’re here and that in itself, is our definition of success, so it comes down to that. We’re defining success as something externally bestowed on us, usually, short term, usually transient, or are we actually defining success in terms of exploring what we are capable of, supporting people here to explore what they’re capable of, and then having some purpose that our organization, sporting or business, is actually trying to make the world a little bit better. And I find that when you have a more meaningful definition of success, a longer-term definition of success, a purpose-based definition of success, then the pressures that come with performance are also set within a wider perspective.

And, you can take those pressures on then. They’re just part of how you explore what’s possible, and you know you’re going to learn and you know it’s not always going to go brilliantly and you know you’re going to make some mistakes, but actually, that’s part of this bigger journey. So it really depends on what you stand for, how you set up that environment and how important that is. And of course, sometimes if you don’t even have those things, so it’s purely about the trophy and we don’t define the environment, then I think people find it extremely hard to thrive and the way, even if they do achieve success, they do it at a really high cost that then comes back to hurt you.

Natalie Doyle:

Yeah, that purpose is so important isn’t it? And that’s across the board. Sophie, you’ll have a really clear purpose in terms of what you try and do with your club in, in terms of making it more inclusive.

Sophie Bartup:

Yeah, of course. And when you said that Cath around what does success look like? So we run a session in Hull and we have a player there that initially came for a very short period, maybe 5 to 10 minutes. And I recently did a visit and my training coordinator said this player is now doing 20 minutes of a football session. And I went out and I can honestly say that that smile was genuinely sustained for 20 minutes. And actually that session is an hour session. However, that individual is accessing that on a weekly basis for now 20 minutes. And actually if that goes 25 and 30, fantastic. But if that 20 stays at 20 and some weeks, it goes back down to 10, then that’s success, because that individual may not know that that helps their self-esteem or helps their confidence, but they will certainly feel it, and I think that’s really important. And again, an incident quite recently, we’ve just set up an under-12 pan-disability team. We had a big launch event and we got to the first session, we were expecting seven players and two turned up and I’m thinking, and I’m so excited because I know that our club started with two players in 2019. And volunteers came to me and said I’m a little bit disappointed. I said, no, this is exciting. We’ve got not got one, we’ve got two players.

And then the next week we had three but we didn’t know we had three because they didn’t turn up until 20 minutes in, so it was even more of a high. Similar to what you said Cath, and I kept saying, this will grow. This will grow. And I’m being positive and enthusiastic because I know that what we are doing is having an impact. And when that little boy goes to school and tells his teacher and then the teacher confirmed with the rest of the class and the rest of the parents, it’s incredible and success isn’t just about having 10 players there every week that are available every week, and their commitment is consistent, it’s about the person-centred approach and meeting the needs of that individual. And hopefully, we’ll have four this Friday at our Under 12s, but if we don’t, it’s okay because wow, they’re getting such a meaningful experience and it will grow because we are doing everything that we should be, we’re working with the right organizations and the County FA. So what does success look like? I think it’s a question that I’ll probably ask myself and hold myself accountable for more often.

Cath Bishop:

I want to be at your club <laugh>

Natalie Doyle:

Is that difficult though? You probably would’ve both been in these situations where maybe you’re trying to create the right environment and it doesn’t feel maybe at the start like you’re getting the success that you would want. I mean, obviously, Sophie your being very positive with your outlook on it, but you mentioned that maybe some of the other people there weren’t so positive about the numbers, is that difficult to keep the faith and keep persevering with what you think is the right thing to do when you might start getting a little bit of doubt around whether things are working or not?

Cath Bishop:

I think just to jump in, I think this is all about metrics, isn’t it? What are we counting? Quantity of kids through the door and out the door, or are we actually thinking about the quality of experience they have? And again, this comes up and I’m Chair of a charity called Love Rowing, where we’re trying to bring rowing to more parts of the country that currently don’t access the sport and different communities because it often has a real transformative effect in kids on the water, a really different sport from other sports, a really close team experience. And I think anyone in development and grassroots will have this kind of tussle of, is it numbers through the door or is it the quality of experience we provide? And I think if you think long term, it has to be about the quality of experience that we provide rather than some kind of tick box exercise because we want impact because we want those transformational experiences that we’re talking about here.

And so these things, have faith in them. We learn from evolving constantly what we’re doing to attract more. And again, I think you can’t cut quality because actually you only get a short-term uplift in numbers, and it doesn’t last.

Natalie Doyle:

Yeah. And how do you then get people on board with your thinking like that? So you two have clearly got a very similar approach to that, about what it is that we are actually trying to achieve, but Sophie, as you spoke about then, not everyone necessarily sees things in that way. So how do you take people with you in terms of thinking in the way that you want to approach it?

Sophie Bartup:

I think I’ve alluded to before in terms of the way that myself and our committee try and recruit is that a lot of the time it’s a natural process where they’ve been inspired by what we do and the players and the volunteers that we’ve already got in our club and they’ll come forward and say, look, we want to help. And that can be in a really small way, or it can be in a quite significant way. I started this football club when I was 25 years old. I’m 28 now. And if I’m being completely honest with myself, there’s been a lot of times where I’ve had to reflect on the way that I communicate and the way that I try and inspire and the way that I try and be a role model.

And again, it goes back to understanding why volunteers want to do it. Some might just want to be there each week to take subs. And that’s enough for them. That satisfies their desire to help other people. Some might say, I want to be a coach. I want to do my Level One, then I want to do my Level Two. So similarly to the players, it’s understanding the motivations and needs of volunteers. And in the past, volunteers have come to me and said, I’m finding it really difficult. The sessions are becoming really, really difficult. And I don’t think I’m quite able to coach in the way that I thought I could. And that’s where a conversation has to take place. And we have to be flexible in how we approach that. And again, provide them with the right support and the right tools.

I’ve had volunteers that have said, I’m going to take a period of time away because that’s what’s right for me, and then I’d love to come back in the future. And when they do come back, they may be in the same role, or they may be in a different role. And it can be difficult at times, especially when there’s been an incident in a session or something happens that you don’t expect, which of course is always going to happen. We have to be realistic about that. But again, it goes back down to the connections that we have as a group of volunteers. I try and create a culture where we’re open and honest with each other, and we give a little bit of ourselves because we’re all doing it in our free time as well.

We don’t get paid to do it. There’s a desire there for us to want to help people and the connections and the relationships that we’ve built between each other is really important. So on those days where that person might feel like, oh, gosh, I’m giving up, but because they’ve got good relationships with myself and the other coaches, they can just say one word and it’s like, right, okay, what can we do to try and help? What can we do to try and support you now, as you’ve said Nat, it can be quite difficult at times, but it’s just reflecting and trying to move forward in terms of, when you do get posed with a situation where you have to say, look, let’s just stop. What we are doing is absolutely incredible. As a volunteer, you are the heartbeat of your community.

And without what we do, this club wouldn’t exist. And that might sound dramatic, but actually just saying, do you know what, you’re doing a really, really good job, and taking time to make sure people know that, I think is really important because we can get carried away with the pressures of making sure that we’ve got the minibus for the fixtures and that we’ve paid the league fees. And, oh my gosh, did we let the facility know we can’t do that date? If not, we’re going to lose £20, but actually are the players coming? Are they happy? Yes. Okay. Well, let’s just take a breath. You’re doing a brilliant job. It maybe even have a day off, and we go again. 

Something I’m learning all the time and for me being quite young as well, and inexperienced when I became a Chair person, I’m on a self-development journey with it all as well. And I have to talk and be open with people closest to me as well at times. And that can be right. Okay. That’s it. I’m not doing it anymore. Or it can be actually I’m feeling quite frustrated. Tell me I’m okay. Tell me I’m doing a good job and all is well again, but we’re volunteers and we have to recognize that at times as well.

Natalie Doyle:

So getting into practical thoughts, because I think a lot of clubs are going to listen to this and be like, this sounds great. I want this, I want this at my club. We talked a lot about what that might look like and how you work to create that. But if you are a club and you’re thinking we don’t have anything like this at the moment, how do you start?

Sophie Bartup:

I think for me, and it’s something that we are trying to do as a football club, we’re trying to work with other grassroots clubs to try and introduce inclusive teams across our region. And there’s a lot of clubs that are currently delivering fantastic work. And I think it’s about connecting with each other and understanding that all the best practice and good practice that’s taking place that can be shared. That’s really, really, really important. If somebody’s thinking about starting a team or thinking about starting a club, without a doubt, contact the County FA who are there to support and provide that guidance and maybe infrastructure and potentially funding as well. And they’ll be able to introduce you to other volunteers and clubs and coaches that have experience and that can help and support.

And the grassroots community is such a beautiful place because nobody’s wanting to have all the players and win all the medals. Everybody just wants more and more teams to play so that it’s more enhanced and enriched for their own players. And there’s a lot of support out there. Twitter is actually an amazing place for ideas for grassroots coaches. And if I see a friend or a colleague post on Twitter asking for support or advice, there’s hundreds of replies within a couple of hours because, and again, that’s why the grassroots community is such a special place and why these clubs are at the heartbeat of their communities because we all want to see more and more people playing sports. So if you are thinking about it, reach out to local volunteers or grassroots clubs within your local area, because, I can say hand on heart, without a doubt, that they’ll be really keen to support and help and try and build your network and listen to all the clubs as well before you jump straight in.

I’ve been guilty of that at times and I’ve gone, wow, I can’t believe we’ve done that Soph, but I’m definitely in a better place now where I can say to other people, talk to people, listen to people and make sure the County FA are fully supportive of it as well, because there’s going to be times where you make a mistake or you do something that maybe you didn’t think through. But as long as you’ve got that support network behind you to be there and provide that guidance support and help is really, really, really important.

Cath Bishop:

I think it’s an ongoing conversation to think about what does striving look like, that has to involve a lot of listening. I think, going back to that point about thinking why do we exist as a club? What does success look like? Not on a kind of end of season, how many races, or how many matches we played, but, actually what are we trying to contribute to the community? How do we do that? How do we work out what impact we’re having? For me, it’s this sort of ongoing conversation that really focuses around the why and how. Why do we exist? And how do we want to go about trying to achieve that impact we want on the community? And it has to be a constant learning approach.

So we’re always kind of iterating and developing that. I think it is important to have a sense of what our values are, what we stand for. Just something that binds us together, that again, we refine over time. But these are the things that connect us. That shared identity, that sense of the reasons why this particular group of people, why we’ve come together to be coaches or volunteers, or athletes, or just participants. It’s all the time shaping what’s happening around us being really conscious of that. What are you getting from this session? What more would you like to get? Getting to know each other, on that slightly deeper level. So for me, it’s a set of conversations that are ongoing about the why and the how and who we are together.

Natalie Doyle:

Yeah. That’s really good advice. It’s all about getting the right people in places, isn’t it? And then making sure that you’re communicating with them throughout and making sure everybody’s clear on what that why is and brought into what your purpose is.

Cath Bishop:

Yeah. We get really caught up logistically, because logistics are important and they’re complex in sport and you’ve always got to work out, who’s got the minibus and where do we need to be? But we get very trapped into this sort of transactional world of what we’re doing when and it’s these other questions for me. It’s that, why are we here? Why are we doing this? How are we going to go about it in a way that we can all contribute and understand and have similar expectations of what experience is going to be like that we’re creating? And who are we then? Who do we come together to create as a club, as a community? And so for me, it is making sure we go beyond the transactional stuff, which has to happen, but that’s just not the full story.

Natalie Doyle:

That’s brilliant. Thank you both so much. The time has absolutely flown by. I feel like I could listen to you both talk for hours, but we do need to start to cut the conversation now. So thank you both very much for giving up your time, and I’m sure that clubs will find it really helpful in terms of implementing those things into their own environments as well.

Wow. That was amazing. I feel really inspired after hearing Cath and Sophie talk there. I could have listened to them for hours. I think we’ve almost barely scratched the surface in terms of the detail you can go into around how to create those environments within clubs, to make sure that people are having a fantastic experience. And I think Cath and Sophie are obviously doing that in such a fantastic way, across various types of settings. I hope you found that useful and hopefully it’s given you some ideas to take back to your own clubs and organizations. 

Thanks once again, for listening to this episode of the Sports Sister Podcast. Do feel free to give us a review or to subscribe, to make sure you don’t miss out on future episodes, and we’ll be back again soon with some more fantastic guests.

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